Thursday, July 26, 2007
Do You Have an Answer? Part 2
King James: Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
New American Standard Version: Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.
English Revised Version: Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the proving of things not seen.
2 Corinthians 4:18
King James: While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.
In my first discussion with Ken, I approached things from a logical point of view, discussing the reality of the existance of God, and how the spirit of living things exists, but is not something that science can address. Here, in my latest discussion with him, I wanted to address the idea of faith (by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast, Ephesians 2:8) Intellectual discussion is one thing, it is through faith that we are able to seek God, know Him, and to know His love.
The discussion has been edited in some parts for grammar and spelling. Additionally, I have re-arranged the order in which responses occur for better comprehension. Additional comments have been made by me in parentheses.
[20:59] You: You told me before that your beliefs were different.
[21:00] Ken: Indeed.
[21:00] You: Tell me about them.
[21:00] Ken: Well...
[21:00] Ken: Mostly, I believe that the individual defines good and evil for themselves, that the majority doesn't rule.
[21:01] Ken: Basically, that a person will not go to hell if they break someone else's rule. Only breaking thier own morals can do that.
[21:02] Ken: And that, logically, from my current perspective, the human being isn't capable of doing evil acts.
[21:02] You: So I am a Christian and I sin.
[21:02] You: Does that mean I will go to hell?
[21:02] Ken: Because if a person thinks something is evil, they simply wouldn't do it.
[21:03] Ken: Nope. Not unless you believe sincerely that it is a terrible thing to do, have absolutely no justification, and don't feel guilt for it.
[21:03] You: What about those jerks who flew the planes into the twin towers? They sincerely believed in what they were doing.
[21:03] You: (Which is kind of scary.)
[21:04] Ken: Indeed. So, in the eyes of them, they were doing the right thing, making it impossible for such actions to be completely evil.
[21:04] You: Thats kind of a slippery slope.
[21:04] Ken: Yep.
[21:04] You: It's called situational ethics, and that's what Scientologists believe, to a certain extent
[21:05] You: and secular humanists as well.
(I refer here to one of the tenets of Scientology, "What's true for you is true for you." EXCEPT, of course, when what is true for the individual does not agree with the church of Scientology. In that case, what is true for you is most definitely *not* true!!! )
[21:05] Ken: Hmmm. I agree...
[21:06] You: When we spoke before, I gave you reasoning from a logical viewpoint
[21:06] Ken: Indeed you did. I guess I'm just tired. Let me think...
[21:06] You: as a teacher of science.
[21:06] You: However, here's the thing:
[21:06] Ken: Yes?
[21:06] You: The way one gets into heaven is *NOT* by being good or bad !
[21:07] Ken: Of course...
[21:07] You: The thief on the cross next to Christ,
[21:07] You: he said "Remember me lord, when you come into your kingdom,"
[21:07] You: and for that simple act of faith, Jesus said today you will be with me in paradise.
[21:07] You: Faith is a heart thing, not a mind thing
[21:08] You: It takes a leap of the heart to say, Jesus, I believe in you.
[21:08] You: Come into me and make me anew.
[21:09] You: Faith is a relationship thing (not a matter of intellect.)
[21:09] You: For God is spirit (remember we talked about spirit, like the dog who found his family) and those who seek God must seek Him in spirit and in truth.
[21:09] Ken: Indeed it does. Though I must ask, what of those that do not have the leap of heart to do so? Or those without knowledge of Jesus? Do they suffer for ignorance?
[21:10] You: I do not believe so,
[21:10] You: although some do.
[21:10] Ken: One sec. I'd like to clarify that I believe in God.
[21:10] Ken: Though perhaps slightly differently.
[21:10] You: The demons believe in God, and they tremble.
[21:10] You: Do you remember that book, the one I mentioned?
[21:10] Ken: Yes. By Howard K. Storm.
[21:11] You: Yes, anyhow, this gentleman found himself lost and alone, after death.
[21:11] You: And he was being called
[21:11] You: by some person that he could not identify.
[21:11] You: As he followed him,
[21:12] You: he began to be attacked by creatures in the darkness.
[21:12] You: Even though he was an atheist, he recalled his youth,
[21:12] You: and he called out to Jesus.
[21:12] Ken: And if he hadn't?
[21:12] You: That made these creatures VERY angry,
[21:13] Ken: Finish first though.
[21:13] You: But they began to back away from him.
[21:13] You: Ok.
[21:13] You: So eventually, he saw this little light in the distance,
[21:13] Ken: So they were frightened by Jesus' name or presence.
[21:13] You: according to him
[21:13] You: and the light was coming for him,
[21:14] You: and the next thing he knew, he was in Jesus' presence
[21:14] You: So he was asking alot of the same questions that you have asked.
[21:14] You: One of them was, who has it right? The Protestants? The Jews? The Muslims?
[21:15] You: (his question was, what is the right way to God?)
[21:14] You: and Jesus answered him,
(Here is where I take a small break from the conversation, dear reader. It would be anticlimactic to tell you what Jesus said to this man during his near death experience. I will, however, relate Ken's reaction to what Jesus said.)
[21:15] Ken: Now that is a wondeful answer.
[21:16] Ken: *wonderfil
[21:16] Ken: **wonderful
[21:16] You: Yes !
[21:16] You: Thats just the way he talked in the New Testament.
[21:16] You: Baffling scribes and pharisees.
[21:16] Ken: Yepp.
[21:16] You: Thats why I think you would find truth there, (as well as in scripture.)
[21:16] You: Storm later in his life became a priest.
[21:16] Ken: Yepp. I don't see a specific set of rules to getting into heaven.
[21:16] Ken: Well...
[21:17] You: Well, I think the bottom line is its by FAITH.
[21:17] You: Believing in one's heart (that Jesus died on our behalf,)
[21:17] You: seeking God
[21:17] You: and trying to know and understand,
[21:17] You: not mans rules,
[21:17] You: but His Spirit.
[21:18] Ken: Hm. I do not seek god. Mostly because I think he has more meaning unfound.
[21:18] You: I encourage you to do so.
[21:18] Ken: Why would you say that?
[21:18] You: At the very least, get that book
[21:18] You: because it is like you said,
[21:19] You: the pursuit of seeking that which is not known is something that is worthwhile.
[21:19] Ken: I'll get some cashola and grab that book, though I'd like to wait a bit. Need to put time and money in other things.
[21:19] You: And in this case, it involves our very selves.
[21:19] You: Ken, its 5 bucks
[21:19] Ken: Hehehe.
[21:19] You: on amazon.com
[21:20] Ken: Okay okay. I'll get it.
[21:20] Ken: AFK
[21:20] You: okay
[21:20] Ken: Ugh.
[21:20] Ken: How annoying.
[21:20] Ken: 1 second...
[21:20] Ken: AFK
[21:22] Ken: There. Good? Oh, and it was actually 15 here.
[21:22] Ken: Not sure why.
[21:22] You: Did you get a new copy or a used one?
[21:22] Ken: New.
[21:22] Ken: Heh.
[21:22] You: Ah, thats why.
[21:23] Ken: Yepp. Plus "our" money isn't as good as the most common.
[21:23] Ken: Or so it appears.
(He refers here to the Canadian dollar.)
[21:23] You: keep an open mind with it; I think you will find many answers that (are acceptable) there,
[21:23] You: or make more sense than some answers you will find elsewhere.
[21:23] Ken: Hehe. I've always thought of Jesus as a guy who'd never really 'tell' you anything. He'd just mess with you a bit.
[21:24] You: Jesus was incredibly insightful.
[21:24] Ken: Of course though, I never thought of the persona of Jesus to be the actual son of god.
(Here I address Ken's thought.)
[21:24] You: There's a story I just heard today,
[21:24] You: of a young boy who was- oh whats the word?
[21:25] Ken: continue...
[21:25] You: he was (whats it called when you live in your own world?)
(Here we continue the conversation, I had difficulty remembering the word, "autism," and we went back and forth trying to recall.)
[21:26] You: The whole thing- you don't respond to whats going on around you-
[21:26] You: you never look people in the eye.
[21:26] Ken: Have conversations with people that aren't there? Or just oblivious to surroundings?
[21:27] You: Oblivious.
[21:27] You: It's something that is extremely rare to recover from.
[21:27] You: Anyhow,
[21:28] You: this family started praying, asking God and Jesus to have mercy on their child,
[21:28] You: who was now 10 years old.
[21:28] You: And he was completely delivered and healed!
[21:28] You: The doctors were astounded.
[21:28] You: This happened in Holland in 1995.
[21:29] Ken: Which makes the boy... 23?
[21:29] You: Jesus has power to heal, (for he was and is the son of God.) He healed people in front of many witnesses.
[21:29] You: Yes about that age.
[21:29] Ken: Hm.
[21:29] Ken: Interesting.
[21:30] You: Thats why the pharisees knew they could not say to him, "You did not heal these people" so instead,
[21:30] You: they said, you healed them through the devil.
[21:30] You: Jesus turned (their arguments) back on them.
[21:30] You: And THAT'S only one of the reasons they wanted him killed.
[21:31] You: They made a big show of how devoted to God they were.
[21:31] You: He put the pharisees in their place because they accused him, not even realizing that it was God that was healing these people
[21:32] You: and because they hated him, they could not even see that.
[21:32] Ken: Hm.
[21:32] You: Jesus saw right through them.
(Here, there is a misunderstanding of words, which I have omitted. Ken thought I was saying that Jesus caused the pharisees to become sickened. I clarified, stating that he turned their words back on them, not the illnesses.)
[21:34] You: He said how can Satan be divided against Satan? If a kingdom is divided, it cannot stand.
[21:34] You: He made them to look like fools in front of the people.
(This is poorly stated by me. Actually, Jesus revealed that these highly religious leaders either did not understand spiritual concepts, or were so overtaken in their zeal to accuse Jesus that they ignored them.)
[21:35] Ken: Well, he didn't. They did.
[21:35] Ken: They made themselves look like fools.
[21:35] You: Yes, many would not have the courage to stand up to the pharisees- they weilded real power.
[21:36] You: It would be like standing up to the roman catholic church in the 1300's.
[21:36] You: All kinds of bad things could happen to you.
[21:36] Ken: Heh. And we all know how well THAT went.
[21:36] Ken: "She's a witch!"
[21:36] You: Very true!
[21:37] You: Well, it is getting late
[21:37] You: and I must camp.
[21:37] Ken: Indeed. Well, have a good sleep.